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@JDB I disagree with you on this.
Stage 1: Write a letter to airline noting their failure to inform you of your EC rights and notifying them that you require a re-route at your convenience and supply new dates.
Stage 2: If they refuse, supply them with screen shots of the cost of alternative flights and inform them that the same will be purchased unless they agree to re-route.
Stage 3: Upon further refusal buy flights and issue claim.Of course this does not deal with what “re-route at the passenger’s convenience” should be interpreted as in the context of EC Flight Regulations. Although those regs aim to “ensure a high degree of protection to passengers” [recital 1]. However, The above process is not a loss of a chance claim but rather ensures the loss is crystallised with the company provided with every opportunity of avoiding the passenger incurring the loss for which they are claiming.
By the way I absolutely agree for what its worth that you should try Section 75 first however that is by no means guaranteed. If law was clear there would be no need for lawyers. There are several potential paths to customer victory in these matters (Credit Card S.75, CEDR, MCOL) and the aggrieved should try as many as they feel comfortable with. If Section 75 works it is certainly the most efficient!
@JDB I disagree with you on this.
Stage 1: Write a letter to airline noting their failure to inform you of your EC rights and notifying them that you require a re-route at your convenience and supply new dates.As @meta says, there is no specified penalty for failure to advise a passenger of their rights, so once you have taken the refund, it’s all much harder (including persuading the airline) and to go and buy/fund expensive tickets (and correspondingly high court fee), then go to MCOL has a fair degree of risk. s75 is cost free but as a route to enforcing EU261 rights vs. Virgin is tricky, particularly when ANA is the operating carrier.
@JDB As @meta says, there is no specified penalty for failure to advise a passenger of their rights, so once you have taken the refund, it’s all much harder (including persuading the airline) and to go and buy/fund expensive tickets (and correspondingly high court fee), then go to MCOL has a fair degree of risk. s75 is cost free but as a route to enforcing EU261 rights vs. Virgin is tricky, particularly when ANA is the operating carrier.
I agree with this and I would not buy any alternative tickets that I was not ultimately prepared to pay for myself. All litigation is risky and speaking generally law is good for lawyers, perhaps no so much for everyone else. However, we were initially dealing with the failure to inform of rights point and not the other potential issues that exist in successfully recovering damages from an airline.
The holy grail of English Tort law is that a tortfeasor should put a wronged party in the same position he would have been in the absence of any proven wrong. Thus my reasoning with regards to the failure to notify of rights is at least conceptually sound from first principles. Evidence as always is another matter. Moreover, there is no precedent in any of this and so it is all up for grabs!
My strong personal view is that no one should be paying out for flights that they cannot afford to ultimately pay for themselves but if you are willing to throw the dice there are plenty of decent arguments in favour of the consumer. There is much to knock about English law but generally a great many rights are granted to the individual vis-a-vis the State and/or the multi-national corporate. The problem is the ability to enforce the same. Personally, I hope as many people as possible sock it to BA. A little David vs Goliath is good for the soul.
@cinereus You could, but Virgin can, faced with thousands of pounds say that they did not record the call.
First try S75 as it’s simple and you don’t have to advance any cash. Then do MCOL, which has fees and can be quite substantial for larger claims. I’d send first a letter before action outlining your EU/UK261 rights before that stating that you’ll take them to court and/or start a dispute via cc company.
Thanks.
Regarding MCOL, there is a sliding scale for fees. Given my ideal resolution would be a re-booking not the £11k cash, would it be okay to pay the lower fee to start with? I think usually after making judgement if there resolution does turn out to be for a greater cash sum you can pay the balance later (and of course the Defendants would be liable to cover costs).
I have experience with a couple of MCOL cases before but agree that S75 might be the simplest course of action now. You mention “It’s all about how you present the case to credit card company and how good the cc company is”. What sort of phrasing do you recommend and what do you think I should be avoiding?
Does anyone more knowledgeable than me know whether it’s possible to find out which day an ANA flight was cancelled?
Well today I submitted a MCOL to recover the cost of a return flight to Tokyo with ANA, 600 Euros EC261 cancellation compensation, over £300 for unrecoverable costs and the £600 for the legal costs of submitting the claim. Never done this before and not sure how it will work. The call centre for ANA told me that only an idiot would attempt to sue an airline. Hopefully I have not made a mistake.
NickGood luck @Just Nick please keep us informed.
The arrogance! ANA saying “only an idiot would attempt to sue an airline”. It just makes you want to take them down a peg or two, and is why 261 exists.
Please take the Daily Mail photographer with you, when you go to Heathrow with the bailiffs, to impound an ANA plane to enforce judgment. ANA will owe the fees for that as well.
I do hope if your ticket was bought from Virgin, you are claiming against both though. Just in case.
I just thought I would provide an update on my ANA first class reward flight saga. Flight booked through Virgin with miles but operated by ANA who cancelled the flight within 14 days. Submitted EC261 letter which was ignored, submitted a letter before action which was ignored and then submitted an MCOL for £12,600. Just had a call yesterday from ANA and they have moved my flight to me preferred dates in November. Result!!!
Still waiting for an update on my court fees, my unrecoverable costs and the EC261 compensation. Still a brilliant result so far but you have to be really persistent. Hope this helps anyone else starting this journey. Stick with and you will get there.
Only an idiot, eh? Well done @nick, and thanks for updating us all.
Very well done @Just Nick.This is helpful to encourage others who’ve also had ANA cancel flights they booked via Virgin.
Have you informed the court? If not, talk to the Clerk to the Court, do not give up on your other costs and the compensation. The fact that the cost of rerouting has effectively been paid will be adjusted into the records of the case, giving the judge a good opportunity to despatch the case quickly awarding you your fees and unrecoverable costs (assuming you claimed anything else in the MCOL). It’s worth a call if they are answering the phone as I am sure they will quickly realise they can now get the case finalized and off their workload.
Sadly for ANA it sounds like they might have actually had to pay for some legal advice, as well as your hopefully returned costs and compensation if all goes well from here.
Will you let us know when it’s all done and you’ve got all your money back? Congratulations again.
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Well done. Don’t close the MCOL case just yet. Make sure you have an actual ticket (that is e-ticket number and not just PNR). You can amend the claim amount, but you need to talk to the Clerk. They will be able to advise.
Hi all,
I want to thank people on this forum (in particular Lady London and Meta) for their help and advice with this issue. I had a call from ANA this morning, and they have settled the claim in full. This has now closed down the MCOL action. It has been a long and quite daunting process however, if you know you are right, then stick with it. The key is to know and understand your rights, be clear and reasonable about the resolution you are looking for, have evidence to support that and finally remain calm and polite at all times. The best thing is that I have an ANA first class return to Tokyo to look forward to in November. It should be amazing!!! Suntory 21 year old whiskey will never taste so good.
Well done for both a great result and persevering. I hope Japan opens up and you have a fabulous trip.
You comment contains the key word “reasonable” which has, I’m quite sure, been key to your success. A number of people here are clearly asking for too much and are then surprised by their failure…
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Great result. Although beware that ANA announced yesterday that as long as Russian airspace is closed they won’t be flying from London. They are still selling tickets though!
Ive just had my ANA F flight cancellation email from Virgin. As it was booked on Virgin points, should it be Virgin who arranges the rescheduled flight or ANA?
@slidey the operating airline is responsible for fulfilling your EU 261 rights so in this case ANA
Noting that in the case of ANA as a nonEurope nonUK based airline, EU261 protection applies on the entire journey leg departing Europe or UK but not if it”s so far just the return leg being changed.So you should approach ANA . If you encounter difficulties then it’s best to take any formal steps needed naming both Virgin and ANA jointly in whatever you say, request or claim. The arbitrator or better, judge will sort out who’s responsible from the parties you bring in in this way.
Dear All,
I have to confess that I was quite smug at the recent Head for Points party and told a few people about my success with enforcing my rights under EU261. It did look like that I had successfully obtained my legal expenses, EU261 compensation and a refund of unrecoverable costs. The best part was that ANA booked future flight in First Class in November. As they say, pride comes before a fall. I have just found out that ANA/Virgin have now cancelled my booking even though flights are still available. No reason has been given and I am unsure where to go next. The flights were booked by ANA in response to legal action. Do I now have to resurrect the legal action on the basis that ANA have reneged on their settlement. What a complete pain.
Nick
Dear All,
I have to confess that I was quite smug at the recent Head for Points party and told a few people about my success with enforcing my rights under EU261. It did look like that I had successfully obtained my legal expenses, EU261 compensation and a refund of unrecoverable costs. The best part was that ANA booked future flight in First Class in November. As they say, pride comes before a fall. I have just found out that ANA/Virgin have now cancelled my booking even though flights are still available. No reason has been given and I am unsure where to go next. The flights were booked by ANA in response to legal action. Do I now have to resurrect the legal action on the basis that ANA have reneged on their settlement. What a complete pain.
Nick
From what you say, it appears that you settled after issuing the claim? If so, did you get a Court (consent) order to reflect the agreement, such that you have an enforceable Order rather than just a(nother) contractual agreement. With money settlements, one can wait until the cash is paid before withdrawing the claim but if it is the provision of a service some months away, you don’t want to have the claim vacated/dismissed without an Order.
In this instance, hopefully it is a mistake rather than ANA resiling from whatever agreement you reached which hopefully was done on a formal basis even if you didn’t get an Order.
Have they already paid the costs which would at least evidence part of the agreement.
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This never went to MCOL or hearing as ANA settled. In any case, I think you can always start a new claim.
Have you also checked that the flight is going ahead? Given that Japan probably won’t be opening to tourists until next year, they might be reducing their schedule for the winter. Japan also has entry quotas and JP government is making airlines reduce number of passengers, so maybe it’s part of this.
A settlement is a contract be it orally or in writing. Had you sent a letter of claim before the settlement? If you did then then you can sue for breach of settlement as a free standing claim, presuming you can prove the agreement to settle (e.g. a letter from ANA, telephone recording obtained by a GDPR request if available).
If no letter before action I cannot help because I have never had to deal with this. Meta, JDB (with whom I do not always disagree!) or someone else might have some input.
If meta is correct and they can’t fulfil the settlement due to quotas then at the very least it would be unreasonable for them not to offer an alternative date of your choice. Again a “frustrated” settlement agreement would be a new one for me!
Good luck, hopefully it’s a mistake somewhere.
@JustNick as well as your rerouted flight date in November, had you physically received all the money claimed into your bank account?
If yes you have physically received the money and not just an order or an agreement to pay it, then whatever the reason for ANA now trying to change or (they would like to think 🙂 ) delete, your November flight, I am sure this is a new separate initiative by ANA to reduce flights.
This is more an opportunity than a threat. What are you betting on Japan being open to you by November? For most people I would be doubtful. If you’ve already got your money then is this a chance to rebook from next summer or possibly spring? Or, if there’s a Japan election soon, for 6 months after? (as whoever is elected will probably have to go with popular sentiment of keeping visitors out). I would treat this as a new matter if I’ve received all the money and would probably be really hoping the previous matter was closed.
Having said that, whether you have reasons to stick to November or not, I’d give my contact at ANA for the legal stuff a call, Tell them what you’d like to do with the flight (stick to as similar timing as they still have available in Nov or move it further out), refer to the money they paid you and how much trouble it was om both sides, that is closed and you don’t want to do it again for a new case, and ask them to get.someone in ANA to book you the flight you need (Nov or later). As you are sure whoever cancelled your seat is just doing their best and not aware of the history.
If on the other hand you didn’t receive all the money yet, @StillintheSun and @JDB know court procedure. So follow what they suggest.
Let us know how you get on?
@LadyLondon
Elections happened last weekend. Same party won that is now more or less in power for the last 70 years. They publicly stated yesterday, they have no intention of removing covid restrictions locally nor travel restrictions any time soon.
@LadyLondon
Elections happened last weekend. Same party won that is now more or less in power for the last 70 years. They publicly stated yesterday, they have no intention of removing covid restrictions locally nor travel restrictions any time soon.
I fear that doesn’t bode too well for further requests for “re-routing at a later date at the passenger’s convenience”. I don’t think the courts will expect airlines to continue to hold what are now fairly ancient tickets open until the country reopens. It isn’t what the 2004 statute originally envisaged nor can the airlines be expected to take the rap for a country’s legitimate decision to keep its borders essentially closed to tourists.
- This reply was modified 55 years, 4 months ago by .
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