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Apologies if I’ve missed discussion on this topic somewhere else, but do people consider the global Cloudstrike IT issues to be extraordinary circumstances for the purposes of UK261?
I was due to fly with TUI (would have been first and now I will never fly them) yesterday. They asked us to get off the flight after it had taxied 4.5 hours after we were due to depart and 15 minutes after we were due to arrive last night, and then they cancelled the flight formally 10 hours later. Two different TUI employees cited the Cloudstrike issues as the reason. Apart from 2 Easyjet flights, pretty much every other flight seemed to be flying, and most without delay. It looked like all TUI flights were extensively delayed or didn’t fly. This makes me think this was more to do with them and their systems than the more general issue, or they were exposed more than most.
Other TUI staff members mentioned engine problems and staff going out-of-hours. The groundstaff stated it was a TUI issue and not the Cloudstrike one.
Then, the cancellation e-mail stated I would receive a refund. I asked the groundstaff about re-routing this morning and was told they had no power to do anything and to call a number. After an hour on hold, the call centre told me refund was the only option. I insisted they send an e-mail stating they are refusing re-routing under UK261. After multiple consultations with “the office”, they said they would send something. Still haven’t received it. I have since booked a new flight and plan to ask TUI to reimburse me, but it feels like they will refuse, so maybe my first time for CEDR or MCOL. Very unimpressed with their inconsistent staff messaging and their refusal to re-routing. One of their staff said we would be accommodated (which I thought was unrealistic for that number of passengers at that time of night – 3.10am. We were told to “go home” at 3.10am).
@ankomonkey – I think it is highly likely TUI will be able successfully to cite ‘extraordinary circumstances’ such that you won’t be eligible for compensation as this incident is precisely the type of external event outside an airline’s control envisaged by the regulations. You mention that other airlines were flying which is true but equally, very major airlines like UA and AA were massively impacted and MAN was impacted more than some other airports and, in any event, it’s only the impact on your flight that counts. [nobody has mentioned how well BA did!].
If you don’t believe the Crowdstrike incident is the true reason, you can claim compensation and if refused take the issue to AviationADR or MCOL but I suspect they will get a lot of leeway.
TUI should however, reimburse the cost of your new tickets or the difference if they didn’t refund you. In view of the number of claims they will receive it may take some time.
PS – don’t worry if you don’t get any email saying they won’t reroute you. It would be highly unusual for any airline to do this and you don’t need it anyway.
@JDB I guess BA did well for once as their antiquated IT legacy systems probably don’t include any Microsoft products?!
@JDB I guess BA did well for once as their antiquated IT legacy systems probably don’t include any Microsoft products?!
FLY and Amadeus went down but the backup systems worked and sufficient flight plans had been created ahead. The bigger issue ultimately for BA was aircraft stuck at airports that shut down and lack of availability of stands at LHR which also had to reduce arrivals because of airlines that couldn’t operate at T3, and others at T2.
@JDB I guess BA did well for once as their antiquated IT legacy systems probably don’t include any Microsoft products?!
Guessing CloudStrike doesn’t support Win2k Server.
Correct, only 2008R2 SP1 and above and Win7 SP1 upwards (64 bit only)
Lots of people still running the POS version Win7, hence the amount of retail that was affected.
@ankomonkey – I think it is highly likely TUI will be able successfully to cite ‘extraordinary circumstances’ such that you won’t be eligible for compensation as this incident is precisely the type of external event outside an airline’s control envisaged by the regulations. You mention that other airlines were flying which is true but equally, very major airlines like UA and AA were massively impacted and MAN was impacted more than some other airports and, in any event, it’s only the impact on your flight that counts. [nobody has mentioned how well BA did!].
If you don’t believe the Crowdstrike incident is the true reason, you can claim compensation and if refused take the issue to AviationADR or MCOL but I suspect they will get a lot of leeway.
TUI should however, reimburse the cost of your new tickets or the difference if they didn’t refund you. In view of the number of claims they will receive it may take some time.
PS – don’t worry if you don’t get any email saying they won’t reroute you. It would be highly unusual for any airline to do this and you don’t need it anyway.
Thanks @JDB. My main problem is that TUI’s e-mails have said they will refund me and the person I spoke to on the phone said she can’t prevent that happening. I argued that I hadn’t agreed to the refund and that they hadn’t given me the choice of refund or re-routing. I fear this will get difficult once the money hits my credit card.
Them choosing to refund you doesn’t remove your right to a rerouting. They’re generally a decent operator, it’s more a system limitation more than anything, they can’t rebook you onto any other airline as they aren’t an IATA member. I’m quite sure a short communication to them reminding them of your right to rerouting and a request for the difference in fares + any duty of care expenses will likely yield a positive result.
Compensation I’d deal with seperately if you think there is a mechanical cause vs the IT outage
In my mind it should not be extraordinary if it is issues with TUI’s IT system, or those they are subcontracting to do a job they should be doing.
If it is the IT systems of the air traffic control, other airports etc., then I would call it exceptional, and certainly beyond TUI’s control. Because of the widespread nature, and the strong likelihood that delays were caused by others’ systems (who were not simply subcontracting for TUI), I feel it will be highly likely the situation was an ‘exceptional’ one. There might be specific and individual circumstances for specific flights you are able to argue were TUI’s fault and therefore not exceptional, but this would be the minority if they exist.Even if exceptional, you should be due re-routing or refund (your choice). If TUI are refusing to reroute you, and enforcing a refund, you can buy a flight under similar transport conditions, and claim the cost back. I strongly suspect you will be successful at this. If you are choosing the next available flight (rather than rerouting at your convenience/choice) you should get hotels/food between the time of the old flight until the re-routed flight leaves.
Agree if it was solely TUI’s IT its not exceptional but in this case it was worldwide and out of their control I really can’t see them not winning that argument.
Though rerouting doesn’t have such a “exceptional circumstances” clause does it? Same as duty of care?
I think it’s an interesting argument to make, I’ll be doing so on behalf of two of my clients who were delayed by several hours on a KLM flight. The actual reason for that delay was the late arrival of the incoming flight (though no doubt it will be argued that the IT issue caused that delay, an airline does have a choice where to position its aircraft). If a bank didn’t have sufficient back up systems in similar circumstances and customers were impacted, it would likely be fined. And airlines have a choice how much they invest in IT/Cyber security/back up systems. So while I think it will be a difficult argument, it is arguable.
I think it’s an interesting argument to make, I’ll be doing so on behalf of two of my clients who were delayed by several hours on a KLM flight. The actual reason for that delay was the late arrival of the incoming flight. If a bank didn’t have sufficient back up systems, it would likely be fined. And airlines have a choice how much they invest in IT/Cyber security/back up systems. So while I think it will be a difficult argument, it is arguable.
Many inbound flights were delayed at many airports owing to the IT incident which not only impacted the airlines, but also forced ATC/airports to reduce arrival flows and knock on effects of ‘extraordinary circumstances’ are allowed. It is indeed a difficult case to make but the argument re choice of how much they invest in IT is a terrible one! The argument re airlines having a choice where they place their aircraft has been repeatedly debunked in cases of bad weather where airlines have to choose what to cancel and what to operate which ends up being a commercial/operational choice that remains covered by the ‘extraordinary circumstances’ and all reasonable measures tests.
@ankomonkey – don’t worry at all about receiving a refund from TUI as their involuntary refund it in no way effective in extinguishing your rerouting rights. It means you will at least only be owed the difference rather than waiting a long time for a bigger amount of cash.
If airlines thought refunds worked to kill off rerouting rights, they would all be putting through instant ones!
Thanks to everyone who’s replied to this thread. I bought alternative flights and flew this morning. We missed 2 days of holiday and the costs of those 2 hotel nights and a couple of taxis, but we arrived this morning and my kids have had a great day.
When I’m back home I will pursue TUI for at least the difference in flight costs if they have processed the refund, and I’ll look to include some Right to Care costs. I was caught up in the BA May Bank Holiday IT failure a few years ago and also had an easyjet cancellation due to bad weather two years ago. I have to say BA and easyjet sorted out replacement flights quickly in the circumstances and got us to our destinations within 24 hours. TUI were diabolical, so this was the first time I’ve been left to find an alternative. I’m a bit calmer now – and this thread’s advice has helped with that – just wish if these things have to happen sometimes that they could be in times when I don’t have my 2 kids travelling with me. Attempting to salvage a trip for them is a far bigger priority than if it’s just something for me!
@ankomonkey – the missed hotel nights / no show charges are not covered under EC261 Article 9 ‘Right to Care’ but may be covered by insurance, but even that isn’t for sure. It’s a bit of a lacuna in the APR and many insurance policies that they will usually pay for extra hotel costs incurred but not missed ones. If your insurers will cover the cost, they may insist on a refusal from TUI before they will pay, so you should claim from TUI in the first instance.
Given the size, scale and sudden nature of the event I’d say it’s undeniably extraordinary circumstances. A well assured and globally trusted cyber security software package went wrong which is pretty extreme.
Additionally, how the software in question works, the companies affected had no choice in deployment of the patch, it got pushed out, so they wouldn’t be able to check it themselves or delay until others have implemented first. Again this adds to the extreme nature of the event
If a company chooses to deploy a patch that wrecks there network, that’s just bad management and process’s and wouldn’t be extraordinary. But the fact they had this forced upon their network from a trusted source is extraordinary
If a company chooses to deploy a patch that wrecks there network, that’s just bad management and process’s and wouldn’t be extraordinary. But the fact they had this forced upon their network from a trusted source is extraordinary
Extraordinary but not unprecented. McAfee’s 2010 update resulted in similar carnage but not as widespread as there were fewer PCs in critical infrastructure 14 years ago. By pure co-incidence the CEO of McAfee in 2010 is the same gentleman who runs Crowdstrike now.
And in further updated news it turns out that the same Crowdstrike software has been crashing Linux machines since April.
It all falls to the software testing guys. Automated testing, human testing, both can only go so far, ultimately any software can break in crazy ways once deployed. Was a victim many times over my career.
Difficult to tell at the moment but I wonder how long the CrowdStrike issue can be used as an extraordinary event. My brother had his BA return from Split cancelled on Sunday, and the rebooked on Monday also. Made it home yesterday, and considering claiming….
@JDB, yes, I will try my travel insurance for anything I can’t get covered by TUI. However, by the time the per passenger excesses have been taken, there probably won’t be much left!
A different conversation, but I do think travel insurance should include some sort of provision for lost days. I think they cover things like ski piste closure as part of Winter Sports cover. We will have lost 2 nights out of 8. Maybe a fixed/standard amount per day lost rather than a pro-rata proportion of the overall trip cost.
I think it’s an interesting argument to make, I’ll be doing so on behalf of two of my clients who were delayed by several hours on a KLM flight. The actual reason for that delay was the late arrival of the incoming flight (though no doubt it will be argued that the IT issue caused that delay, an airline does have a choice where to position its aircraft). If a bank didn’t have sufficient back up systems in similar circumstances and customers were impacted, it would likely be fined. And airlines have a choice how much they invest in IT/Cyber security/back up systems. So while I think it will be a difficult argument, it is arguable.
The late incoming flight is likely to have been due to Air traffic control restrictions as they reduced the number of flights. My BA flight from AMS to LHR on Saturday was delayed heavily due to the late incoming flight, but talking to the crew, they’d been ready to leave LHR on time but had to wait at the gate for a couple of hours till Dutch air traffic control let them head to Amsterdam. It’s almost certain that the KLM delays were the same cause – Dutch air traffic control restrictions leading to delayed and cancelled flights.
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