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Hi folks – I received this today from CEDR. I admit that I have had a cocktail in Lisbon (on a very pleasant Club Europe flight) and it has addled my brain but it looks like they are offering a 75% refund of the upgrade payment and AVIOS. I did not ever / still do not – see a refund of the original payment or of the original AVIOS so this sounds like they are simply refunding 75% of the original payment/ AVIOS. Which would mean I am still completely out of pocket. They also left me without any AVIOS or tier points for the return journey – despite me re-sending the boarding cards and so I have been done out of 9000 AVOIS and my much awaited upgrade to Silver! I don’t know whether to accept this. Or should I wait for my hubby to go up to silver next week and then phone the silver line and see if they can help get our avios and tier points back for me? I’m not so fussed for the money to be honest – its all about the Avois and the tier points! Before it all changes!
This is what the response says
Please note that the airline/airport made a settlement offer to the other side for £0.00, with the following terms:
“Dear Ms XXXX and Mr XXXXWe’re sorry to hear that Mr XXX was downgraded to World Traveller Plus after you paid in Avios to upgrade both of your tickets to Club World. We’d also like to apologise that you haven’t received a response to your claim until now. Unfortunately, it’s been taking us much longer than usual to respond to our customers due to extremely high claim volumes caused by several periods of disruption over the last 18 months.
I can see that your missing Avios and Tier points have now been added to your Executive Club accounts.
In cases of a downgrade, under UK law, passengers are entitled to a refund of 75% of the fare only (excluding taxes and charges) for the affected flight only. I’ve attached a copy of your flight tickets, which show that the initial fare paid for flight BA2036 on 19 September was £233.64 each. Please be aware that this is the fare for the flight only and excludes any extras booked as part of your British Airways package holiday, and any taxes and charges. You then paid 30,000 Avios each to upgrade to Club World. So, as only one passenger was downgraded, you’re entitled to a refund of 75% of the total fare paid (excluding taxes and charges) for one ticket.
Therefore, our offer is for £175.23 and 22,500 Avios which represents 75% of the total fare for the affected flight only for one ticket.
Upon acceptance of our offer, please provide the name of your bank, account number, and sort code, so we can arrange a bank transfer for £175.23. We will then also recredit 22,500 Avios to Ms XXX Executive Club account.
Please be aware that if you decide to reject our offer, we will need to submit our defence to CEDR and your case will then be assessed by CEDR on a legal entitlement basis only.
We look forward to hearing from you.
Kind regards
British Airways”.
@Karen-Robertson – BA’s response is a little confusing, particularly the ending about the “legal entitlement basis only” as that’s what they purport to offer above.
Firstly, I think you should deal with any TP/Avios issues entirely separately from involuntary downgrade compensation. From the response, the outbound is resolved, so you need to chase for the return.
If what BA states is correct – ie only one (of two) passengers downgraded on one leg only – I’m not sure what you are suggesting is incorrect about BA’s offer in respect of the involuntary downgrade?
If you accept the offer, you can make it clear that such acceptance is only in respect of the downgrade and conditional on fixing the return TP/Avios within 14 days. They may not accept that and I appreciate it could be seen as contradicting the above!
Thank you so much! I agree I wish I had kept Avios and payment separate but at the time I thought it easier to explain it all!
I think BA still don’t understand what we are missing.
After booking the BA holiday for £3440 in Premium Economy, we paid around £290 each – plus 30,000 Avios each – to upgrade the return flight. They are only acknowledging an Avios upgrade but it was part avios and part payment and I have two separate bookings to show the difference when we upgraded. So when my hubby was downgraded I expected to see one lot of 30000 Avios being returned, and one of the £290 coming back – as a minimum). He received neither!
To add insult, they did not award either of us any of our avios or tier points for that same return journey even though we were due the Premium Economy equivalent. Although only my hubby was downgraded – neither of us were given these return avios/points. It is true that missing Avios and Tier points have since been added to my hubby’s account – but not to mine.
So at this point I am due around 9000 avios and 200 tier points (double points in USA last year). My hubby is due 30000 avios plus his £290 upgrade payment). That excudes any compensatory refund of anything.
It says that if we accept an offer then we cannot add conditions so I feel like the only option is to reject – but I know that rejections can also end up with nothing! I’m not fussed for any compensation. I just want the avios, tier points and original refund we are due! Also if my hubby gets a silver card while I am left with bronze he will be lording it up on me! : ). : )
@Karen-Robertson – I’m still not sure I understand this fully, and it’s highly likely CEDR won’t either so you risk not getting what you want and are owed. You need to set out each element of the involuntary downgrade compensation/reimbursement. I appreciate that because it’s a package you may not know the exact underlying fare, but you should have a fairly good idea and let BA challenge that.
I think it would have been better to rope BAH into this to resolve the missing Avios and TP but you should do that now, although you must copy BA and CEDR on all correspondence. BAH is your agent and they owe responsibilities to you in that capacity.
You also need BAH either to disclose to you the actual fare or to tell BA who can then make you a global offer.
If I understand it right (and I’m not confident I do) you should be compensated 75% of three elements of the one way fare for one passenger:-
1) the original PE fare built into the package (less taxes/charges)
2) the Avios paid for the upgrade to Club
3) the cash paid for the upgrade to ClubIf correct, BA’s offer should be rejected on the basis that they are only compensating you for 2 + 3 when 1 is probably the largest element. Set out the correct sums for them in the clearest way possible – a table is clearer than text.
Thank you so much! I agree I wish I had kept Avios and payment separate but at the time I thought it easier to explain it all!
I think BA still don’t understand what we are missing.
After booking the BA holiday for £3440 in Premium Economy, we paid around £290 each – plus 30,000 Avios each – to upgrade the return flight. They are only acknowledging an Avios upgrade but it was part avios and part payment and I have two separate bookings to show the difference when we upgraded. So when my hubby was downgraded I expected to see one lot of 30000 Avios being returned, and one of the £290 coming back – as a minimum). He received neither!
To add insult, they did not award either of us any of our avios or tier points for that same return journey even though we were due the Premium Economy equivalent. Although only my hubby was downgraded – neither of us were given these return avios/points. It is true that missing Avios and Tier points have since been added to my hubby’s account – but not to mine.
So at this point I am due around 9000 avios and 200 tier points (double points in USA last year). My hubby is due 30000 avios plus his £290 upgrade payment). That excudes any compensatory refund of anything.
It says that if we accept an offer then we cannot add conditions so I feel like the only option is to reject – but I know that rejections can also end up with nothing! I’m not fussed for any compensation. I just want the avios, tier points and original refund we are due! Also if my hubby gets a silver card while I am left with bronze he will be lording it up on me! : ). : )
Hi I think it will really help if you really clearly spell out the payments. Till now it seemed you paid £290 for the tickets plus 30,000 avios for upgrade. You have to make it simple and clear for CEDR.
Thank you both so much. I did not think about involving BAH and yes I really did have trouble trying to separate things out when it was a package. I will re-approach it on the basis suggested!
: )If you book a ticket in premium then pay extra to upgrade to business, is that ticket then classed as a business ticket the same way as if it was booked directly into business?
At the very least you should be getting 100% of the cost of the additional upgrade back as you werent provided the upgrade that you paid for, but I wouldve thought it shouldve been 75% of the total cost of premium ticket component of the holiday total + 75% of the business upgrade ?
Who knows the ways of BA, but from reading this, it sounds like you booked PE, used Avios and cash to upgrade to Club, then flew in PE. From that interpretation, surely you are due 100% of the upgrade cost refunded, but no ‘downgrade’ compensation as you flew in the original class booked.The complication seems to be the phrasing, and I agree it would be 75% of the fare if no ‘upgrade’ had been purchased, but in this situation, I think it could be successfully argued you weren’t downgraded, but just not provided with the service, ie the upgrade, you had purchased.
As for the missing tier points and Avios, obviously they are due…EC261 was written in the Stone Age of air travel so it doesn’t explicitly refer to things such as paid upgrades or consider that there might be aircraft operating four classes so a downgrade from First to Economy gets the same as a one class downgrade. The wording of Article 10 starts:-
“If an operating air carrier places a passenger in a class lower than that for which the ticket was purchased, it shall within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), reimburse…”
If someone has purchased an upgrade, they have purchased a ticket for the higher class and how one got to the total ticket cost doesn’t matter. The airline owes 75% of the total cost, less disbursements. In the unlikely event that the sum paid for the upgrade amounted to more than the 75% then one could ask for that sum in full, in the same way as it is often better for short haul flights to ask for the difference in cost between classes rather than the 30/50% compensation.
Hey folks – thanks so much for helping. I had another reply from BA through CEDR but still don’t understand the basis of it. If I paid money and avios for an upgrade that I did not receive then why am I only offered 75% refund of both? Surely I am due the full amount for both. And if that is the case then where does the 75% come into the picture? Am I entitled to a full refund of cash and avios AND also 75% of both as part of EC261?
To be honest, with the £300 evoucher and the £175 then the cash reimbursement is probably fine. It is the avios I still don’t understand. I used 30000 avios for an upgrade to club for a premium economy seat that had already been paid for in full and in cash. I am told that the refund offer was 22500 which loses me 7500 avios – but then they have increased to 30000 as a ‘gesture of goodwill’. I’m not sure why 30000 is a gesture of goodwill when it simply represents a refund of the avios I used. Should I be asking for the 22500 avios in addition to my original 30000?
Thanks!
Dear Ms Robertson
Our offer was to arrange a bank transfer and Avios credit for the correct refund of 75% of the full fare value in line with the UK APR Regulations for downgrades, and was not for any additional compensation. I’ve arranged the bank transfer of £175.23 which represents 75% of the original fare for your ticket, and you should receive the payment within the next few days. Although we offered 22,500 Avios which represents 75% of the Avios you paid when you upgraded your ticket, we’ve decided to refund 30,000 Avios instead, which is a full refund of the Avios paid to upgrade one ticket and we’ve redeposited the Avios to your Executive Club account today. So, this means you’ve now received a refund of the full amount that you’re entitled to.
As a gesture of goodwill, I can also offer you an additional £200.00 in cash, or alternatively an eVoucher for £300.00. Please let us know which option you would prefer. If you choose the cash option, we will arrange a bank transfer of £200.00 to your Barclays account. If you decide to take the eVoucher, we will arrange this as soon as possible and provide the details here on the CEDR message board. eVouchers are valid for one year from the date of issue, and can be used as fulll or part payment towards a new flight booking.
We look forward to hearing from you again soon.
Kind regards
British Airways
I think you’ve got more than EU 261.
Downgrade equals 75% of what you paid in total
you paid X cash Plus Y avios . So you are due 75% of X cash plus 75% of Y Avios you seem to have ended up with more than that.
@Karen-Robertson – there isn’t really any official rule or guidance on how to treat paid upgrades (whether with Avios or cash) so there’s a limit as to how far you could escalate this successfully. You can argue (as I think you are expecting) that you didn’t get the upgrade you paid for, so you should get 100% of that back, plus any lower taxes applicable to the lower cabin but it’s equally arguable that once you pay for an upgrade, everything you have paid is taken together as the fare and you get 75% of that. Neither is wrong, so you always need to ask explicitly for the calculation version that suits you and I would expect BA to pay that. As you have asked for the downgrade compensation, that’s what you have been offered. It’s the same with the shortest haul downgrades where the 30% compensation is usually less than the difference between the classes so you need to ask for reimbursement of the latter and not the Article 10 calculation. The goodwill element offered to you by BA is actually a bonus; there was no requirement for them to add this to your settlement so you have received more overall than your statutory entitlement.
When dealing with BA directly or MCOL you need to be very clear what you are seeking and why, while at CEDR they might possibly make up for any shortcomings in the complaint, but definitely not always.
Thanks! I’m probably sounding daft but I am not getting how it works as I am comparing it to buying a product for £100 and when I don’t get any part of the service then I expect £100 refund. Not a £75 refund. BA have offered to refund me my 30000 avios as a gesture of goodwill but why was it ever deemed acceptable to only offer me 75% when I am clearly due all the Avios. The flight was part of a BA holiday so it was all paid in cash in premium economy at the time. And a few weeks later I used cash and 30000 to upgrade the return flight to Club. Which I didn’t get.
Appreciate everyone’ patience!
Karen@Karen-Robertson – you say you only got 75% “when I am clearly due all the Avios” but objectively that’s not right; the fact you did a paid upgrade becomes irrelevant. You paid a fare in two chunks at different times, but that still equals one total fare, effectively as if you had paid it instalments.
Very late to the party but seems rather obvious to me. Karen booked a holiday, upgraded the flight, was downgraded ending up back where she started with what she originally paid for. Therefore, refund due isr 100% of both avios and cash for the upgrade as BA failed to provide what Karen paid for. If they don’t she ends up paying BA 25% of the upgrade cost for essentially nothing in return. The problem here is that it is being treated as a downgrade when infact it should be treated as BA failing to deliver its contractual agreenent to provide Karen with a service she paid for, i.e. the upgrade. One caveat, I am unsure if multiple secors were involved and if all or only one sector was affected; if only one of two or more sectors was involved the BA is correct in processing this via downgrade policies.
Thanks again! And yes BJ you describe the situation perfectly! I paid separately for an upgrade with cash and avios and did not receive the upgrade. And in answer to your question, both sectors were affected on the return flight.
Confess I knew nothing about any of these things before I joined the forum but someone pointed me to the EU261. When I first raised the question with the forum it was simply because BA would not refund me any money or avios and kept closing my cases without resolution. I was directed to CEDR which has been slow but slowly resolving some of it – but someone also said that EU261 provides for some form of recompense. BA have just made such a hash of this from the start and even now their responses do not make sense to me. I suppose I would like to understand more about it – for the future!
And for this case I am trying to work out is whether I should have been offered
1) a refund of the money and avios I paid for the upgrade which I did not receive
2) a refund of 75% of the money and avios I paid (which seems ludicrous)
3) a refund of the money and avios I paid plus 75% under EU261.Ever grateful!
Karen : )
@Karen-Robertson – on long haul, 261 does provide you with a significant compensatory element for the inconvenience and discomfort of the downgrade. You have only paid 25% of the total fare for the downgraded sector which is obviously a lot cheaper than even the original fare you paid before upgrade.
261 is supposed to be a simple system that provides fixed compensation thus giving the passenger certainty and avoiding courts or adjudicators having to spend disproportionate amounts of time examining cases. So your 2) is correct on the basis of 261 as the legislation offers no alternative way to calculate your downgrade compensation.
If you wanted to claim on a contractual basis as suggested by @BJ and your 1) then that’s an entirely different sort of claim.
I’m not sure what the concern is here as you have ultimately ended up with more than the sum provided for in law which seems like a good result. Were you maybe expecting to get 100% of the upgrade cost in cash/Avios plus 75% of the underlying/original fare as that can’t be right? The problem is that the law simply doesn’t provide for specialist cases like part cash/Avios upgrades, companion or upgrade vouchers.
From BA’s perspective, they do separate statutory compensation/right to care expenses from gestures of goodwill for accounting/monitoring purposes.
I would have chased this as 1 from the outset on failure to honour contract. Unfortunately you’ve chased it via the downgrade policies and ended up with 2 at a loss to yourself. It’s all a bit of a mess abd a bit grey but I would not be too hard on yourself or BA that it has become so. You’ve already had a bit of a result in that you’ve gone from getting nothing back to getting 75% of what I consider BA rightly owes you. A lot of effort has clearly already gone in to getting this result, the question for you now is whether the extra effort to try and get the remaining 25% is worth it to you or whether just to lick your wounds and consider it a lesson learned. Personally I would be doing the latter but fully understand you and others here may favour the former as a matter of principle. I am not sure you can go any furthrt down the route you are currently on. If you do want to take it further I think I would be inclined to do so with a very short and precise letter to BA legal office seeking a full refund of upgrade costs for failure to deliver on contractual agreement than pushing thd CEDR thing further. Forget 3, pigs might fly.
@JDB, I think either you or I are missing something here. You seem to be under the impression Karen got something for her 25% cost while I an under the impression she got nothing for it? I am assuming that the downgrade/failed upgrade (depending on viewpoint) occurred before gate and that she lost fast track and lounge access as a result, these could ofcourse have still been provided but the question then arises whether they were provided as part of her contract or as goidwill with the downgrade.
I have certainly learned a lot from this but looking back at earlier comms from BA – they say that the initial fare I paid for the flight was £233.64 (which is surprisingly cheap for a PE seat but I will accept that as its all tied up in a BA holiday so hard to extricate). Then I paid 30000 Avios and cash (which was a further estimated £280) – to upgrade this fare to Club.
They have only ever offered 75% compensation for the base fare which is fine and that is why they offered me £175. But they kept my £280 which formed the cash part of the upgrade. And they only offered to return 22500 of the 30000 avios that I paid for the upgrade. And this is why I don’t understand it! They have added a flight voucher now and upped the 22500 to 30000 as a gesture of goodwill – and I will probably just take it – but their view on it seems entirely wrong and I would love to understand it!
🧐@Karen-Robertson – CEDR interprets the refund due on the cash part of redemptions in a funny way as reported by another poster earlier today (see link below). I suspect that it’s all a bit too complicated for CEDR. Often MCOL is the better option, but in either case you need to set things out in a way that leaves no room for error and effectively writes the decision for them. I’m afraid that even now it’s to super clear.
If you had wanted BAH to settle on the basis of 1) you needed to claim from them under your package holiday rights and not to BA under 261.
@BJ – why would the OP be writing to BA Legal when they have already received more than the statutory entitlement? The large compensatory element of Article 10 for (long haul) involuntary downgrades is supposed to cover all aspects of the inconvenience/reduced comfort whether that be lounge/fast track/seat/food. The whole point is that it’s a fixed sum of damages that’s basically very generous.https://www.headforpoints.com/forums/topic/downgrade-reimbursement-response-from-ba-via-cedr/
Take the offer Karen.
You’ve done slightly better than you could have by either way of claiming. Whether under 261, or as a failure to provide the contracted/paid for additionsl upgrade for its costs paid, I woukd say you’ve done better than you strictly could have donw approaching it either of these ways.
The reason is you’ve got the full 30k avios back plus the £175 bank transfer plus their new extra offer of a further £200 cash or £300 voucher. If we take the value they gave for the original Premium Economy fare component within your BA Holiday to be correct, you’ve now been offered more than you should have (by either claiming method).
Grab it with both hands, go back to them, accept and alongside your thanks say you’re very anxious about the original tier points and avios for the PY sesting (including the BAH double tier points offer) and it would set your mind at rest if they could please make sure these are credited as you’re relying on them for your Silver status. Just be nice (also ask BAH separately).
There is no point pushing for any more and I get the sense BA is being nice and is really making efforts to resolve this fairly and I think they have done that.
Note that if this had not been a BA Holiday where the internal cost of the flight is of course,, sharply reduced, my advice would be different. As for a standalone flight you would indeed have also been due 75% of a much bigger underlying fare but this is not the case here. (I also think this particular person you’re dealing with at BA would have made a fair offer in that case too though.)
So grab it and be nice, ask nicely if any asssistance could be given to ensure you also get the missing PY avios and tier points, but follow up with BAH separately on that if you have to.
I honestly think the current offer doesn’t need improving and there has been some generosity.
Confused?? I think the OP upgraded a flight with Avios, and it was downgraded to the original cabin. A sensible person would work out she should have the Avios returned. If EU261 declares instead that 75% of the TOTAL fare is reimbursed – if that is greater than the Avios upgrade – then all is OK. If not the OP needs to ask just for the Avios back (and any tax difference).
Probably EU261 isn’t the best recourse for such issues as @JDB says. At MCOL, the case is quite clear – if the upgrade wasn’t provided, put me back in the original position before the upgrade.
In an attempt to clarify:
When a paid upgrade is made after a flight has been purchased, there is nothing in the legislation as to which of the following scenarios applies to a subsequent downgrade back to the original (or any lower) class:
1. Only 75% of the amount paid to upgrade (in this case, cash plus avios), on the basis that BA simply failed to honour the upgrade.
2. 75% of the cost of the entire ticket, as the upgrading is subsumed into the original ticket, so it is treated as if Karen had just booked a club seat in the first place (so in this case, original PE cash price, cash plus avios upgrade). NOTE: only one leg was downgraded, so I assume that means the “original PE cash price” is in this case one half of that sum.
As Lady London points out, in this case the result is pretty much the same either way as the original cash price was very low, although 2 is obviously a better outcome, but in any event BA’s offer actually exceeds both 1 and 2. If the cash price of the original ticket was higher, then there would be a significant differential between 1 and 2, and potentially a good reason to go to CEDR.
FWIW, my view is that once a ticket has been upgraded, compensation should be based on the total amount paid for that ticket – it is essentially the same as having booked a club seat in the first place (and, as we all know, one of the risks of upgrading is that you can turn favourable ticket conditions in a lower class into less favourable conditions in the higher class – which supports the view that this is effectively a club booking ab initio).
1. Only 75% of the amount paid to upgrade (in this case, cash plus avios), on the basis that BA simply failed to honour the upgrade.
This is contract law, not EU261. EU261 is explicit about the amount of compensation for downgrading – related to the cost of the “ticket” (the upgraded ticket).
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