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Dear Forum members,
I seek your advice on this unique situation (at least to myself) where a flight operator changes from BA to one that’s much worse with little notice.
Three and a half days before I am due to fly on BA, they have emailed me saying my flight will no longer be operated by BA, but instead by Avion Express, which a Lithuanian airline that is rated 4.7/10 on their customer satisfaction. The times have stayed the same, and the route has remained the same.
The email reads:
“We’ve made some operational adjustments to our schedule which means your flight will now be operated by Avion Express on behalf of BA Euroflyer. Rest assured, we will still be getting you to your destination as planned in the cabin you’ve booked.”“If you’re happy to continue with your travel on this basis, you don’t need to do anything further. However, if you do not wish to travel on this service, we have some options available to you, including changing to an alternative British Airways operated service.
For more information or to discuss your options please visit Manage My Booking on http://www.ba.com or call us on 0800 727 800 from within the UK, or +44 (0) 203250 0145 from outside the UK. If you booked via a travel agent, please contact them directly to discuss your options. “* I tried calling BA on the number they provided, but was met with an automatic reply saying “We are very busy, and unable to take your call right now, please try again later” and it hung up on me.
* I tried going to “Manage my booking” – but the only option there was to cancel
* I spoke to the “Chat” team, who said they can offer my alternative dates 2 days before or after, but unfortunately the same flight is sold out from a different airport.
* I called another phone number the Chat team provided 0344 493 0787 about “Flight changes”. But on the call they offered to upgrades or changes, and told me I am out of options, and if I am unhappy, I should just go to ba.com/complaints and fill a form (that can take 30-60 days for them to reply to).What would you advise at this point – I am unsure as to the aviation laws surrounding an aircraft “downgrade” and whether there is anything I can do beyond writing them a complaint letter.
Thank you so very much in advance!
LightSkyhttps://www.headforpoints.com/forums/topic/avion-express/
Being discussed here
Essentially your only option is to search yourself on ba.com and if you can find a suitable BA operated flight +/- 3 days from yours then BA should move you (that is their usual policy in this situation)
You have no rights beyond this though of course you can complain but you’ll need to be clear what you’re looking for
What would be the situation if you decided to not take the ‘options’ – would you be able to cancel FOC and get a refund?
As @SamG says, you have no rights other than being able to move the flight within 3 days either side of the journey – you’re still bound by the original conditions of carriage which include BA being able to make equipment changes.
There’s no downgrade unless the new plane doesn’t actually have the cabin you paid to travel in.@NorthernLass in my mind it’s not an “equipment change” that’s when BA swap eg. A320 for A319. This is a change of operating carrier. A material change in the contract. It’s not even under a UK AOC.
Avion Express are Lithuanian but I am not sure if BA are using the LY or 9H aircraft. The Lithuanian regulator is notorious for turning a blind eye.
Avia Solutions is quite the umbrella company.
There are further issues in terms of the advertised standard and what is available onboard. How about the contoured leather seat and adjustable headrest?
@hugol0ver – so for all your indignation at the change of operator, what are you claiming is the measure of damages? BA is already allowing free changes, something they are not under any obligation to offer.
Surely it would only be a change of operating carrier in any meaningful way if your contract of carriage was no longer with BA but with Avion Express? I don’t see that this is the case. I’m not sure why people are getting so het up about this, for a flight of 2 – 3 hours I just want to get to my destination.
@hugol0ver – so for all your indignation at the change of operator, what are you claiming is the measure of damages? BA is already allowing free changes, something they are not under any obligation to offer.
Based on what? EC261? The main advantage of the Passenger Rights Regulation was to codify clear compensation, rebookings and care for IDB, canx and delayed flights, many other issues are still subject to basic contract law. Only if the flight was cancelled in the system, for example with a change of flight number, would 261 be applicable. The pax is at least entitled to a refund of the trip if they no longer wish to travel. Without looking closely at the routes, there may be situations where BA do not have a BA operated service with 2 days of the original dates.
You and @NorthernLass seem to think its fine to book BA and have Avion roll up to the gate (as long as pax are informed before departure per the EU Directive) because the contract is merely transportation from A to B. I strongly disagree as would anyone applying common sense. Personally I would be fine with a G- aircraft at the gate, like from Titan.
How far can BArb go with this? Pax have booked BA, but they’re not getting BA, its not even a British carrier. You book BA in C expecting the luxury Club cabin with the contoured leather seat and adjustable headrest but (don’t forget the luxury sales) and get a wet-leased Lithuanian charter company that typically operates holiday charters for tour operators. Perhaps European Air Charter were too expensive, BA could have even arranged an MD82? I am sure the BG AOC is just as good as LT and its all EU.
How about you’re booked to fly Club to New York and they send a clapped out wet leased aircraft from HiFly that still has a C cabin but its nothing like BA. Under EC261, no compensation would be due, is that the end of the matter? It would be for the lawyers to argue the damages due.
All kinds of issues could give rise to damages that are not covered by EC261. A non-exhaustive list of examples off the top of my head, no meal loaded, no SPML loaded, no alcohol/drinks available, middle seat sold in Club, seat broken, IFE broken, lounge full or closed.
Expecting to fly on a British Airways aircraft when you book a BA operated flight is reasonable and if you then wish to refund your trip because that’s not the case, its also reasonable.
It might even be the case that BA knowingly sold tickets on Euroflyer for the Summer flying programme knowing they would not be in a position to operate them without wet-leasing. I doubt someone went to work on Monday morning and suddenly realised they don’t have sufficient cabin crew. We still see carriers continuing the pandemic practice of selling tickets for flights they have no intention to operate. Lufthansa just did a huge clean up for Winter 2023/4 these past few days.
Many cases are brought before the Courts in Germany where Lufthansa wet lease an alternate carrier and its of insufficient quality materially different to what the pax expected. Those cases are brought under the BGB, not EC261 and despite what’s in Lufthansa’s GCC, the Courts find in favour of the pax.
I suggest a little reading on the LT regulator on PPrUNe. Much is written about the flight crew standards in the Baltic’s (pay to fly for example) and the lack of enforcement, which is why it’s become an AOC of choice for outfits with low pay fuelled by desperate crew trying to get some hours.
I’ve been on an Avion Express operated flight and the seats were bad. I doubt any future UK government will change wet lease substitution regulations.
@hugol0ver – good luck arguing any of that at CEDR or MCOL; I think the judge will particularly enjoy the discussion re the contoured leather seat and adjustable headrest and most here would disagree with you that BA CE on its own aircraft represents ‘luxury’ so people would need to do a big about turn about that. CRA 2015 doesn’t apply to air tickets sold unless part of a package, so you will need to fall back on other contractual rights. Bonne chance!
they’re not getting BA, its not even a British carrier. You book BA in C expecting the luxury Club cabin with the contoured leather seat and adjustable headrest but (don’t forget the luxury sales) and get a wet-leased Lithuanian charter company
You are falling for the classic ‘little Britain’ attitude that anything that isn’t British is inferior, where of course the reality is that sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t.
Also, you seem to think BA is a ‘British’ carrier? I think you will be spitting your breakfast out when you find out who actually owns them….
I think it’s worth a go-round and kind of agree with Hugol0ver. A case would have to be specific about the differences and if no one stops them, BA is just going to continually deliberately plan to deliver less and less compared to what they’re actually selling.
I also particularly agreed with Hugo’s statment “might even be the case that BA knowingly sold tickets on Euroflyer for the Summer flying programme knowing they would not be in a position to operate them without…” ie BA was selling tickets they knew they would be delivering less than, months ahead and did not make the difference, eg seat pitch, clear upfront. Yes they should have to compensate if they don’t make clear this is not their regular offering. It’s little by little, and for sure BA will do worse and wider once they establish the precedent.
Does no one remember BA’s promises that although passengers booked from Gatwick would be served by crew they tried to make cheap, everything in the passenger experience would not be affected? BA’s intentions were clear and now we’re seeing it put into practice. BA knows perfectly well not to start this sneaky downgrading in Heathrow, don’t they. But if they get away with it in Gatwick they will move on to downgrading everywhere except their star routes (New York, Barbados,etc). Just as they have done with removing First on so many routes and trying not to pay passengers the legally required 75% of their ticket back when they have done this to a passenger who booked First.
If they sold it truthfully we couldn’t complain. But they’re not. The Advertising Standards Agency might take a look.
@LadyLondon – it’s costing BA vastly more to lease these aircraft vs operating their own so it has nothing to do with cost cutting or deliberately planning a schedule they knew they couldn’t operate. They are generally short of aircraft owing to delayed deliveries and they are also short of staff; it’s a global phenomenon.
Many people here are very critical of BA’s CE service although I think it’s relatively good. so it seems a bit rich now to say that BA’s aircraft/service in CE is so incredibly luxurious that Avion is a let down, but people do love to moan.
When you lead this case for the Avion victims what damages will you be seeking for the awful suffering they endured?
@LadyLondon – it’s costing BA vastly more to lease these aircraft vs operating their own so it has nothing to do with cost cutting or deliberately planning a schedule they knew they couldn’t operate. They are generally short of aircraft owing to delayed deliveries and they are also short of staff; it’s a global phenomenon.
Many people here are very critical of BA’s CE service although I think it’s relatively good. so it seems a bit rich now to say that BA’s aircraft/service in CE is so incredibly luxurious that Avion is a let down, but people do love to moan.
When you lead this case for the Avion victims what damages will you be seeking for the awful suffering they endured?
Who cares, JDB. BA need to be honest and they’re not.
No violins for BA and their costs. They are delivering a worse service than they’ve sold however that came about, and they need to be required to declare this and make it right.
My approach here would be to note what is different on the Avion plane to a usual BA plane, complain on return and get a bunch of Avios for it. I’d think at least 10k, possibly more.
You don’t say whether you’re flying for business or leisure, but if the latter then why not use it as an opportunity to extend your holiday and / or travel at a more convenient time / from a more convenient airport. I was in a similar position this time last year when BA used Iberia aircraft on some routes. I swapped an Avios booking from an inconvenient LGW early morning flight to a more civilised time from LHR which is easier for me to get to. I couldn’t book that flight originally because there was no reward availability.
Surely it would only be a change of operating carrier in any meaningful way if your contract of carriage was no longer with BA but with Avion Express? I don’t see that this is the case. I’m not sure why people are getting so het up about this, for a flight of 2 – 3 hours I just want to get to my destination.
We are off to Kos – not a flight that I want to sit on with 28 seat pitch having paid CE prices.
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